Franciscan Spirituality Center
920 Market Street
La Crosse, WI 54601

https://www.fscenter.org/
Welcome to the Franciscan Spirituality Center in La Crosse, Wisconsin’s “What is Spirituality?” podcast. Your host, Steve Spilde, is the associate director at the Center. His guests talk about their evolving understanding of God, prayer, healing, and wholeness.

My name is Steve Spilde and today I am joined by Sister Mary Kathryn Fogarty. Welcome Mary Kathryn.
Thank you.
It is a pleasure to meet with you. I've known you for seven or eight years. I started getting involved here at the Franciscan Spirituality Center and you were on staff as one of the spiritual directors. Let's start by having you describe your understanding of what spiritual direction is.
I would say listening. Maybe listening at the heart level, from the heart space.
How long have you been doing spiritual direction?
I actually started, probably, in the mid-70’s doing spiritual direction. Then I was in leadership for a while and during that time, like eight years, I didn't do spiritual direction.
Do you remember the first time you received spiritual direction?
Yes it probably was when I made a directed retreat in Prairie du Chien. That was the beginning, after that.
What was your expectation of what it was going in - and then maybe - how is it different from what you expected?
I don't know that I really had any expectations. I don't think I even knew exactly what I was doing. But I have had good spiritual directors who helped me to share about my life and soul work.
Was that challenging for you?
Being a spiritual director?
Receiving it.
Receiving, probably, because I'm not as articulate about things. I’m pretty introverted from that point of view. So they probably had to work harder. Just invite me to reflect on things. It wasn't hard reflecting, but articulating the reflection is often difficult for me.
But then you became a spiritual director and really worked at listening to others in a deep way. Was that more natural for you?
Yes, by all means, yes. And I would say again, we all come to find our identity, how we are as spiritual directors. I definitely, even in working with the people spiritual direction program, I don't say a lot. When I'm doing spiritual direction, I can wait a long time.
Were you comfortable with that from the beginning or did you have to become more comfortable?
No, I think from the very beginning I was that way. I would say you know again it was a learning for me. I was definitely more comfortable just listening. But I also had to learn that the work was not mine to do. It was really God's to do. Not getting too anxious about the movements.
Have you always been like that? Have you always been a good listener even when you were young?
Probably. Um-hmm.
The family were born into, can you describe that for me?
Okay, we were people of the land because we were a farm family. Very stable family, hard-working, and lots of extended family because my father's side of the family was a large family and they all pretty much lived around where I lived.
Which was in Iowa.
Yes. West Bend Iowa. We had good neighbors and just really good people. I was surrounded by goodness really and I think we were alike. I come by it naturally. But most of my family is quite quiet. I leave I like to read. My father liked to read. There just wasn't a lot of noise when I was growing up. Then on weekends and during the summer vacations and Christmas vacations I stayed with my grandmother, who at the time would've been probably in her 80s and she was very quiet. Like at the age where I am. She couldn't hear. So why would she want have a conversation? I just loved it because of course I like the quiet. I like to read. She liked to read.
How many kids were in your family when you were growing up?
There were six of us and I'm the oldest one.
Okay.
We were spread out because I'd already left home before my youngest sister was born. Six is not that many to be spread out over 18 years.
The image I am getting is that your whole family was pretty reserved. The atmosphere was one of introverts.
Yeah.
Describe your family's relationship with faith.
Growing up, oh yeah, very faithful. My parents would've been pillars of the church if you want to use that terminology. My grandmother was the same way. So yeah, very faithful. And of course, when you live on the land, you pray, because everything is so dependent on God for rain and good weather, good crops.
Your earliest memories - what was your image of God?
That's a good question. I don't know if I had an image of God. But I think it would been around the land. God was probably the weather person in our house. You know, just good weather. Yeah - image of God - I just I don't remember an image.
And did you go to parochial school growing up?
I did for grade school. In high school we didn't have a parochial school for high school. But my grade school years were at the Catholic school. Eucharist every day as part of our day. And my grandmother was also that way with Eucharist. So, summer vacations, weekends. We went to mass every day.
Was that a positive memory?
Yes. Positive. Very positive. There again it was quiet, and I suppose ritual. And at that time, it was Latin. I mean we had our prayerbook and we read it in English. What would you call that? I think it's so mysterious. I didn't even understand the language.
But you were intrigued by the mystery?
I think so. Yeah. I was comfortable with that.
When did the thought of becoming a sister enter your consciousness?
Probably my junior year of high school. I don't remember in grade school that I thought about it. But the reason I really started thinking about it was because I wanted to be a teacher and the only people I knew that were teachers, not for just a couple of years, but for life, were the sisters. I always say I didn't realize that I would have to love Jesus in this process. I just want to be a teacher. That was what really drew me to religious life.
Your sisters when you were young wore the habit.
Yes. Until, in the 60s. I think probably mid 60s or a little after that.
You wore in the habit for a few years?
About 10. And religious life fit me. I came from a family that was so quiet - I fell right into it. I was at home immediately.
They were honored by you becoming a sister and you got encouragement with that? In my family?
Yeah.
I don't know that. Nobody ever really talked about that part of it. We didn't have sisters in our family so they probably didn't even quite know what I was doing. But that would've been typical of us.
In that age - when you are like a junior or senior in high school – if someone had asked you why were you becoming a sister? What would have been your answer?
I want to be a teacher.
Okay.
I don't think I even told anybody except my family, my mom and dad. I don't think I told any of my classmates or anything like that so I doubt they even knew I was going.
In those days you came here to La Crosse?
Yes.
And just as other people graduate from high school and they go off to college, from high school you came here.
That's right. And in the fall when everybody else is going to college.
Did you start at Viterbo college at the same time?
Yes. In the fall. And it was an all girls school at that time and most of us were sisters - part of the community.
Okay, so of a big portion of the student body were sister.
Yes. Yes. I don't know when they opened it up to lay women but there weren't that many lay women in the beginning. But there again, a lot of young women of that age at that time, didn’t go to college either.
So at that point in your life, early in college, how did you understand God? Or if I had asked, “What is your image of God?” - How would you describe that?
My answer probably would've had something to do with Eucharist and comfort maybe. Maybe at-home. At-homeness. An image – I’m just not sure. I’m not sure I had an image. But a feeling? I would say probably comfort, home. That sense of God. Community. And like I said, not everybody had that experience, but for me, I just loved it. This was great.
Did people use the term spirituality when you were that age?
No.
If someone had asked you - did that word mean anything? And what were some of the meanings that word held?
At that time if somebody had said spirituality, it probably would've been prayer. Devotions. That sort of thing. That would have been it.
There wasn’t much of a distinction between spirituality and religion was there?
No. It was considered religion. Nobody talked about it. And what we learned, even in the classes to become a woman religious - even that was a lot about rules and the regulations. And the doctines and the dogmas. We can learn a lot, even much about prayer. Prayer was pretty much rote and out of the book.

As you think about how your understanding of spirituality has changed throughout your life, what were some early moments – some important moments when that started to change and evolve?
Probably in my mid-30s. It was retreats. I went on my first directed retreat.
Prior to that it was always community retreats – preached retreats. We didn’t have directed retreats. My first directed retreat, that was definitely a changing point for me. Now my experience of Christ and God was personal. It was a personal relationship.
That was for sure one of those moments.
Then, in the 70’s, maybe six or seven of us, the community asked me to